The problem with Craft books like Grammar books that preceded them is, they focus on the mechanics of writing without starting from a focus on what the writer wants to say. Burns noted that types of poems used types of metrical patterning, this post will borrow from Kipling's poem 'to a boy' to look at what metres say Trochee ( stress, unstressed) trips, says Kipling, , so my imagining is this would convey 'being in love', 'joyous about something' etc Spondee (stress, stress) solemn, stalks, says kipling. For me a spondee asserts, creates a finality as in 'so there' Iambs ( unstressed, stressed) march says kipling. For me they also convey a horses gallop, steam engines rhythmic chugg, sounds of mechanical engines. That these sounds are rarely heard these days is why a large number of people now don't know what an Iamb is. Three feet metre Anapest (unstressed, unstressed stressed), leaps and bounds says kipling . Fry gives an example of the metre as ' in a spin' and 'understand' which shows the two moods that I think anapests capture. Dactyl (stressed, unstressed unstressed) Fry gives word example 'agitate'. Spinning pool also says what the metre captures. Amphibrychys ( unstressed, stressed, unstressed) hastes with a stately stride says Kipling. The loss of statecraft in the modern world males Fry example immoral more pertinent. There are others read Fry's Ode Less Travelled p120 for them. When starting to write you start with the story. Stories create rhythms, the point to this post is to consider how sound arrangement along a line augments meaning. Do you agree? Does the different metres above mean different things to you. The biggest problem with what I am writing is that accents change stresses of a word. I find Auden difficult because I can't create an Oxford accent in my head. Interested in your comments. Please write if don't agree at all oe else I will keep filling up this thread.

Hi all I found this little gem whilst reading the complete works of Samuel Taylor Coleridge I purchased on Amazon. The new philosophy he was addressing was an Empiricism driven by claims of common sense and purposefulness,, driven by metaphysical examination rather than today's rationalism driven by formal logic. However the denial of emotional considerations and use of flowery language still has contemporary relevance. Published in 1801 this poem still rung a chord with me. Also may be useful for a Xanadu escape room. ' DRINKING verses THINKING or A SING AGAINST THE NEW PHILOSOPHY My Merry men all, that drink with glee This fanciful Philosophy Pray tell me what good is it? If ancient Nick should come and take The same across the Stygian lake I guess we ne'er should miss it Away, each pale, self brooding spark That goes truth hunting in the dark, Away from our carousing! To Pallas we resign such fowls Grave birds of wisdom! ye're but owls And all your trade but mousing! My merry men all, here's punch and wine And spicy bishop, drink divine! Let's live while we are able While Mirth and Sense sit, hand in glove, This Don Philosophy we'll shove Dead drunk beneath the table

Burns wrote in iambus and regular metres, his poetry divided into stanzas, the rhyme scheme is repeated in each stanza,,, gives the stanza shape. Stanza types Standard Habbie, used for conversationalstyle poetry, or humorous comment The first three lines and fifth line are tetrameter; the two short lines, lines 4 and 6, are diameter Spenserian stanza (Example The Cotters Saturday Night) This stanza form was associated with an archaic and magnificent style of language , lofty thoughtss and aspiring sentiments. It has 8 lines of iambic pentameter and one finaliambic hexameters, rhyming ababbcbcc Tam O Shanter is a four beat meter closest to ballad meter These notes are from 'Robert Burns Selected Poems' edited by Kenneth Brown CUP 1998

So I have been listening to Conversing with Poets and listen to discussion on editing. It is not whether you edit or don't edit but what purpose has editing. The songs that survive over decades, well past the fad, have a synchronising between musical structure, the sound of the words and to a lesser extent these lyrics meaning. So editing should be to work out the kernel to the poem, what is it's message: then is the structure, sound of the words and there meaning synchronised to convey to you that message. What others make your poem you cannot dictate so responsible for it. Love to hear others comments

@Shen Friebe @Marc A Brimble @Bendy Nguyen @Adam Gary intersted in your ideas. You don't need to use highbrow terms, but your poetic competence gives you insight. Stephen Fry in an 'ode less travelled' p24 states 'the organising principle behind the verse is the metre not the sense'. I am by no means as learned as he and have no disagreement with this statement, but organising a verse is not primary to expressing a poetic idea. Before verse comes consideration of 'what am I trying to express'. This i believe is where meaning reigns supreme. Form including: rhythm, rhyme scheme, stanza length, etc all need to add to meaning. But also the comprehension of the reader needs to be considered. Whilst a temporal change within a line or stanza i believe creates confusion and loss of meaning, a temporal (tense) change between stanzas is ok, as long as it adds sense to the message of the poem. Whether the poet was conscious ( ie intended) the change doesn't matter. I have great admiration for Elizabeth barret browning as poet, but having read 'Essay on mind' rhyming couplets, even when broken into chapters, is not the form to communicate nature of intelligence. The form and content separated to the point when I struggled for the meaning. In fact I only finished it because I was in lock down. Whereas her husband, Robert Browning uses heroic verse as a tool of irony in 'the last duchess ' see Stephen Fry p 205 -6; the nobleman narrator's attitude is indicated by the form although the content of the poem is how his jealousy led to killing his wife. I would love to hear your ideas even if you think this unimportant.